Building Revenue Streams + Resilience with Phoebe Sherman of Girl Gang Craft

Meet Phoebe Sherman, the founder, designer, podcast host + funny video maker over at Girl Gang Craft - a community for creatives. GGC is a multifaceted community with a podcast, apparel line, classes + courses, a membership and craft fairs in Oakland, CA, Salem, MA and Providence, RI.  

Our chat covers:

• Tips for your first market or pop-up
• What it looks like to run an omnichannel business
• How to explore diverse revenue streams in your product based business
• Managing your time and task list in an empowered way

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Transcript

[0:04] Welcome to Retail for the Rest of Us, a podcast for indie retailers, makers, and shop owners who want to do business differently.
I'm your host, Janine Malone, retail expert, small business cheerleader, and the founder of Feel Good Retail.
On this show, you'll hear insights, strategies, and ideas on how to sustain and scale your shop without sacrificing your sanity.
Each week you'll hear from me and the occasional guest expert in what I hope feels more like voice note from your retail BFF than a business podcast. Additional goodies and support can be, found in our show notes and at feelgoodretail.com. Now, let's get into the show.

[0:40] Music.

[0:48] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Retail For The Rest of Us. My name is Janine Malone, and I am so happy to welcome you back after a short summer break, to the podcast. We have a few more great episodes planned before the holidays take over and we go on our little holiday planning hiatus, although there are lots of exciting things coming between now and then. But today I am joined by Phoebe Sherman of Girl Gang Craft, who drops some serious knowledge in this episode. I love talking to Phoebe because I think that she has such a unique way of thinking about business. She runs a product-based business, she runs an event business, she runs a service-based business, all rolled into one incredible, inspiring brand, Girl Gang Craft.
And so I knew going into this conversation that it would be far-ranging and also packed with actionable advice, which luckily for me, I'm a bit of a psychic. Or Phoebe really just is that good.

[1:58] In today's conversation, you'll hear us talk about market tips if you've never done a pop-up or a market before. We talk a lot about creating diversity and multiple revenue streams in your business and also what it means to run a multifaceted business, whether that means you're simply selling in an omni-channel manner, meaning that you're selling online and in person or in-person and wholesaling, or if you expand even beyond product, maybe you teach workshops, maybe you have a really robust affiliate arm to your brand. Maybe you're just getting comfortable with the idea of adding another revenue stream to your business. This conversation really gets action-packed around what you can do and also what it means to handle that ongoing to-do list.
Phoebe and I both share some strategies that we use in our businesses to manage our to-do lists without feeling overwhelmed or burnt out. I had a lot of fun having this conversation. I think you'll have a lot of fun listening to it. And I just want to say thank you again to Phoebe for taking the time to come on the show. Hi, Phoebe, thank you so much for being here.

[3:11] Music.

[3:23] Thank you so much for having me today. I am so excited to chat about Girl Gang Craft and the seemingly hundreds of things you do. I feel like you are the busiest woman in show business. And yet you seem to have like so much fun doing it. And I want to know your secrets.

[3:40] Yes, yes. So before we get started, I want to kind of give everyone a little bit of your background.
So can you tell me a little about what inspired you to start Girl Gang Craft and kind of what those early days looked like?

[3:57] Yeah, so let's see, let's take us back to 2015. I was waitressing, I was teaching yoga, I was really focusing on teaching yoga and having that sort of start to be my full-time thing and waitressing to pay the bills because yoga also barely paid the bills.
And I have an art degree and a feminist studies degree if we wanna get into the nitty gritty, and liberal arts schools.
But let's see, 2016, the election, I created this uterus print, this uterus design in response to Trump calling Hillary a nasty woman.
And that was a relief print. And if you're know about printmaking, yeah, it was a linoleum, like a few color print. And so that was right around, you know, the Women's March, obviously after the election.
So I was sort of like carrying my prints around to the Women's March and like selling them off the street.
And that sort of fast forwarded into, okay, I'm gonna make this uterus design into a screen print.
And so I was screen printing that on little patches and sewing them onto vintage jackets and sewing pouches.
And then eventually that became our uterus enamel pen which still exists today.

[5:15] And yeah, sort of diving in to the feminist apparel business, diving into the craft fair world in the Bay Area.

[5:25] And kind of trying to figure out what it means to have a product-based business.
And in the Bay Area, craft fairs are really expensive. I'm sure they're expensive everywhere, but specifically in the Bay Area, some of the big ones are West Coast Craft, Renegade Craft, and these are upwards of $800 for the weekend. Wow.
And that's a lot of money just starting out. That is a lot of money. And I love those events and respect them for charging that amount, because those event venues are very expensive.
But as a beginning artist, it's really hard to A, have that much cash lying around to invest in a booth B, and like how it's, it's hard to imagine making it back. I wasn't really getting into some of those shows at the beginning, I wasn't getting into Renegade Craft, West Coast Craft has barely let me in. And so I was like, okay, well, we need more places to to sell our work on a more local level that is not gonna break the bank.

[6:25] So I started our own craft fair.

[6:27] And that first craft fair was at my friend's cafe in Oakland called Lucky Duck Cafe.
And I just gathered some of my friends that I had met in the craft fair world.
And I think there were like 15, 16 of us in this like pretty small cafe and started an Instagram and learned about Facebook events got people there and it was really pretty magical. And we did it again and again and again and got bigger and here we are today in Salem, Massachusetts. Love that. So I think that, I mean.

[7:04] You know, the necessity is like the mother of invention, right? Like feeling like, okay, you understand, I don't know, just really understanding what your vendors even today are coming up against when they're trying to grow their businesses, I think is so important to you as an organizer, and I'm sure has really changed the trajectory of how Girlgangraft has grown. So what does it look like now? How has it evolved?
Yeah, so we definitely skipped a few steps there, a pandemic there, a move.

[7:43] Yeah, so I mean, we've really evolved. We tried a few locations, a few cities.

[7:49] And tried different ways to be supportive to the community. So we have classes and courses, a podcast. During the pandemic, obviously, our bread and butter is still and was the events.
So definitely through the pandemic, you know, we had to figure out how to pivot. And I'm using we because sometimes it's more people than me. During the pandemic, it was not trying to save my little business on the computer, like all the time. So we have a lot of things going on in ways to support the community. So not only our in person events, but classes on things like brand partnerships, email marketing, how to throw your own craft fair, our podcast, and we still have our feminist apparel line as well. Awesome. So yeah, I think that what really stands out to me is like.

[8:41] You just really, to me, are like an archetype of like a multifaceted entrepreneur, like really multi hyphenate, tons of interests. From where I'm sitting, like you're really good at everything too. I'm curious, like, so obviously in the evolution of girl gang craft, it doesn't sound like you set out to throw craft fairs, you started a line, it doesn't even really sound like you started out thinking that you would have a product based line, you kind of like made something in a moment and it came off like turned off and you were excited about it. So I'm curious, like I hear all the time from retailers where they're interested in.

[9:21] Following that kind of like natural evolution and following their curiosity as their businesses grow, like, how do you think about adding multiple like revenue streams or going omni-channel, I guess, in some instances, and especially with your how to throw your own craft fair, like, how can other small business owners think about that?
I want to say that I've always been someone who's been interested in a lot of things.
I was, you know, going to theater, I was, you know, doing theater, painting, you know, sports, some teams, whatever.
So that's in my DNA. I want to also say that it hasn't always been looked up to, right?

[10:05] Because in the past, it's been like, okay, well, you're watering down all your interests, like you need to focus up.
And to their point, all those naysayers, my business would not be what it is today if if I was just focusing on one thing.
So I'm not saying either thing is better at all, but in terms of running a business, multi-revenue streams is very important.
And I think you can look at this a couple of ways. Well, number one, try a new thing.

[10:35] There could be money involved. That's great. You could also love it.
You know, so those are great things. And when approaching adding revenue streams to your business, I guess if we're focusing on product based businesses, at the seed, you have two options. Well, you have a million options, but you could continue to just stay in your product based business and add revenue streams that way I can give examples. Or you could probably the service side. So some examples of some product based revenue streams that you can add on are trying different channels. You could have your regular website. You could also be on Etsy. You could also try selling on Amazon. Obviously, wholesale can be really lucrative and important. You could be on some of these things like Red Bubble, Society6, where they take your image and they drop ship it to the customer. So those are actually a lot of avenues that you can do to really boost your product-based business.
And if you're someone who's only selling on Instagram or your own website or only on, Instagram and Etsy, let's try some new channels. There are other options for you.

[11:50] I'm not necessarily the biggest fan of Amazon, but a lot of people do find success on it. I'm not on there. I don't know so many people in my circle, but I do know a lot of people who You have figured out ways to bundle things or like just focus on one product.
And the product bosses are really good about talking about that.
If you've heard of them, they're amazing. They really have leaned into like Amazon being on some of these things.

[12:16] If you're like, okay, let's dabble in the service industry. There's so many other things you can do and maybe I'm biased, but I think that can really round out your business.
I think there's potentially more money in the service industry.
Things like teaching classes or workshops. Let's say you're a knitter, right?
You could teach a knitting class. That's going to make you more money than knitting a sweater, I promise you. I really do.
If you've gotten really good at the business side of things, maybe you start consulting, throwing events.
Licensing is a really lucrative one and can be really exciting if you haven't thought about it.
So getting your, this more often than not, applies to graphic artists or illustrators.
Can you get in touch with Hallmark, Anthropologie, even some of these, like Walmart, some of these bigger companies that wanna take your illustrations and turn them into cards and journals and t-shirts, whatever.

[13:26] Or even, you know, transitioning into helping other businesses with logo design or, you know, little illustration things to put on their website. No, I love it. I mean, honestly, it's like if anyone's ever been like, but that wouldn't work for my business. I'm like, well, Phoebe just gave you like 20 ways that I'm sure one of them could work for you and could feel like really aligned. And I think that for a lot of folks, especially who started businesses, like within the last couple of years when it had been like pretty pandemic times, or even just folks who have been running and kind of found themselves in an area that's like, this is working, but I don't know that there's much more growth, let's say in this one location or in this one product, like, how do you, for yourself, I'd be interested to hear for yourself, and also like with brands that you've like, advised or worked with, how do you know when it's time to start exploring with those additional revenue streams and when it's time to bring in in another channel.
I think the answer is the whole pot.

[14:38] Maybe not quite the whole pot, but if you have any sort of questioning or any sort of desire for growth, the time is right now.
Maybe get your website up first. Maybe make sure you have good product photos, blah, blah, blah, really starting out.
Focus on selling at crop. I mean, we didn't even mention crop air.
It's like in-person selling, right?
In-person selling and selling online, I think that's a really good starting point.
And as soon as you're getting comfy, which maybe you might say that you're never comfy, but like, let's add some stuff on.
And throwing spaghetti at the wall, really trying to see what works for you.
I've tried a million things. I've tried a million things and some of them haven't worked.
Some examples of things that haven't worked and I guess they're all sort of on the service side, but like we had a conference pre-pandemic, in-person, we loved it.
We're dabbling with maybe bringing it back. But we did an online conference during the pandemic, and I hated it.
And I'm never going to do it again. And that's great information, right?
Totally. I've heard a lot of people who've had mixed bag results with working with bigger brands like Anthro, things like that.
I think, specifically, if you're very handmade, it might not be worth it.

[15:57] But if you're someone who's a graphic artist and can just make multiple, then I think it can be worth it.
At some point, you need to scale to support yourself and potentially support your team.
There's also no reason that you need to support yourself. Maybe you want to keep this sort of as a side hustle and keep your business.
But I think if you're going to do the thing and run a business, let's see how far it can go.
And, yeah, I think that's all I have. Thank you.

[16:30] Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.
As a time to try new things, I think it's always time to try new things.
And I think you try things and you see how it goes.
And probably often you might even doubt yourself after the first time trying it, or like maybe it didn't go as well as you wanted to, but you did enjoy it.
I say try it again. Totally.

[16:49] If you hated it, scrap it. But you know, there are rewards for continuing to try things, and you might get better at it.
And, you know, potentially your community might really like it.
Like there's all sorts of like benefits besides finances and your own enjoyment that come with trying new revenue streams.

[17:13] Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think something that you really that stood out in the example you gave is like, You also...
I think there's so much advice out there that tries to masquerade as like, these are the steps that you should take.
Start online and then do this and then do this other thing and here's exactly what to follow.
And I just think that for so many creative business owners, first of all, for me, that just is really repelling because I'm like, I started this business because I kind of want to do whatever I want.
So I think that that's really, and I think that that's actually a valid answer to follow your own curiosity inside of your business.
But it's important to try things too because things you may have thought, I don't know if I'm gonna love this, you might really like, or things that you are certain were gonna be core to your business is, maybe you realize that's actually just not for me at all.
I really don't like that kind of negotiating licensing deals.
Just really turned me off. Whereas other people love that. They're like, I just want to make it and sell it and that's it. So I really appreciate you giving the example of like, it was important to try that because now I know I never want to do it again. And it's just like off your mind, right? Like it like frees up that headspace.

[18:36] And I want to give a second example of something slightly different. We recently got rid of our membership and, We had run it since 2020 so I've been around for about three years and I actually loved it, But it wasn't working anymore and I didn't have the time and space to, Like give it a makeover or really dig into it. So it stopped and I'm getting married like in two seconds now And, or maybe past if this premieres after my wedding.
And I just, I didn't have it in me. And so it's done right now.
And we dealt with the consequences, right? We gave people refunds, we restructured things.

[19:20] But potentially it's not done for good. You know? So like potentially we bring it back in a different form that feels nurturing to all parties involved.
But yeah, learning that something's not working is also challenging when you love it too.
So there's all sides of the coin. There's a million different factors that come into play with these projects and these revenue streams.
And yeah, I think it's really important to get community data as well, especially if you're in the service side and you're helping humans, like figuring out what they want and what they need and their feedback.
And yeah, also listening to yourself and your team and how it feels in your body.
Another example, just throwing all these examples out.
I really don't like launches.

[20:08] And it's taxing on my body. And I've had some launches in the past.
And launch, I'll go into that a little bit more, is like, I'm defining it in this moment as like a cart open, cart closed time period, selling a product, so a class or a course.
And I put a lot of eggs in that basket emotionally. And it hasn't turned out the way I wanted it to at some points.
Or even if it sort of has, it's just really taxing.
So there's a couple different ways that I could have handled that.
One, we could have just all gone to Evergreen, which we sort of did.
But it wasn't working. Evergreen, to define that, is something that's available all the time, right?
But we're recently experimenting with actually we're gonna have a mini launch every week.
Oh.

[20:58] And- You're like, I hated this. Let me do what we can do. No one teased me.
No, totally, right? It's like maybe, okay, what are you doing to yourself?
But actually it lightens the load because doing a mini launch all the time is like an exercise of, okay, well, like this is happening all the time.
So it's not as weighted emotionally for me. And it's really hard as a business owner to have.

[21:25] We hold so much weight with our stuff, right? They're our babies.
And it can feel really rejecting. Oh, no, only a few people signed up for this thing.
That must mean I'm a terrible person, and my business sucks, and blah, blah, blah.
It's actually been really cool audience-facing, too, because, like I said, it's really hard to just mention everything in bite-sized pieces, like scattered.
Totally. So even just talking about one thing for a week has been really helpful.
It's been helpful to my team. I think it's been helpful to our audience.
Actually, we're selling things in this way.
And there's always a new chance to try. It's not like the pressure is like this cart is closed and now I have to wait two months for the next thing. It's like, all right, that one didn't work.
What can we learn from it and apply to the next? It's kind of like a muscle you're building, it sounds like.

[22:20] So, you know, this has only been a month-ish, so I don't have that much data to back it up, but it feels better in my body.
Well, that's huge data.

[22:32] I love that. There's so much of what you've been saying that I want to like dive into.
I'm going to try to like make this as focused as possible.
But I think the first thing that comes to mind, and I can like almost hear folks who are listening to this literally screaming at me.
OK, you have Phoebe from Girl Gang Craft. Can we get some market and in-person selling tips, which you mentioned with expanding your...
If you're a product-based business owner and you're like, I don't know about teaching a class, I don't know about offering a service, I think to Phoebe's point, there's ways to create additional revenue streams just from your product-based business.
And a great one is joining a market or starting wholesale or getting in person.
So what tips would you give to someone who's maybe never done that before and has been kind of in their studio, making their product, like putting it on Instagram and hasn't really set up a booth or talked to people maybe in person about their products?
To provide you with some photos of my old booth. Maybe you can share them and I think it's fascinating.
And I'm a thrift queen.
So my focus was my booth display. And I'm sure that's a focus for a lot of people because we're visual, right? We wanted to, we're trying to create a thing.

[23:51] But I was so cheap, you know? And like, so I got these like beautiful things that were so impossible to carry, to transport.

[24:02] They were all, you know, heavy and mismatched. But we, I was also, I sold jewelry.
We didn't even mention this. I sold jewelry for like a little bit.
I was making jewelry. And so.
Anyways, we had like all of these displays that I was focused on but they weren't transportable So I would say that's number one find things that are transportable. So you want to focus on things that can fold.

[24:28] What can fit in your car?
Um That's a big one. I love my Honda fit. I would you know, I would love to get a fat brand deal from Honda fit and the car does not exist anymore, so, So still go out and find a used Honda Fit.
Highly recommend. But sort of if it's in the cards to get a new car, maybe thinking about seats that can go down in the back, right?
Or what can you fit in your Honda Accord? I really sound like I'm a spokesperson for Honda.
I'm not, but Honda Toyota all the way.
OK, so if you have just like a sedan, How are you gonna put your stuff in there?
So you're probably gonna have to think about the width of your car a little bit more, right?
What fits in your trunk?
These are really important things when you're building a booth that maybe you're not thinking about because you're just thinking about being at the market.
I have a fold-up QVC shelf. That's like the love of my life.
And then Tupperware. I love big Tupperware things with tops that can stack on top of each other.
And then thinking about your wagons.

[25:39] Maybe you get one of the ones that are like the little cart ones that like people at restaurants use with like booze.
I don't know what that's called. Oh yeah.
Or like, you know, your little park wagon. Anyways, figuring out how you're gonna carry the stuff from your car to the building or the parking lot or wherever, like transport is really key.
And some other like booth related things, right? What does your signage look like?
Important, important. Are you taking email?
Please, and yes, and thank you. Are you directing people back to your Instagram?

[26:16] Do you have information about sizing? Do you have information about quality and what things are made of? Are you someone who's going to actually display your prices? Or are you not someone who's going to display your prices? I've heard people play with different things, right? Like they want people to ask them about the prices. I generally I think prices are displayed are a good thing. I personally have my prices on a list. And they're not on every single thing. So people are are still asking me all the time what the prices are.
And then thinking about the flow of booth traffic. Are people going to come into your booth?
Are you giving them a reason to come into your booth?
I've seen a lot of people with success about spinning things.
Can you offer some sort of prize?
Even people having little vending machines.
So fun.
Be creative. How can your booth be interactive? How can you get people in the booth?
And then, you know, talking about your approach, right? Like bring snacks, bring water, eat your snacks, drink water, people are gonna be respectful of that.
But yeah, see if you can be present. And I think I've been seeing a lot of things on like TikTok too about like how.

[27:25] How much you want to say to people. And I think, especially here in Salem, right, we are really working with all sorts of folks, right? Introverts, extroverts, people who really, like, don't want to say anything and just want to touch things. And like, we want to make space for all sorts of shoppers in our booths. So like, I saw something recently, I wish I could remember who it was, and I'm sorry, but they were like, don't actually ask people how they are. That requires a response.
So I'd be like, you know, happy Saturday.

[27:57] They don't need to respond. And so then you're approachable and then they can come to you.
And I don't know how different this is for like retail. It's kind of interesting to think about too.
Like what are some of these like psychological ways that you can be present with folks to encourage them to buy?
And I'm sure there's tons of essays that you've done and stuff about it.
Yeah, I'm always just like, be a human. Like, think about what you like and what you don't respond to, and maybe don't do that.
Yeah, like, what do you feel comfy with? And like, you don't want to be in people's face, but you do want to like, be like, tell them about things.
Like, people, when people pick up my snake sweatshirt, I have a snake sweatshirt, I call it the divinity sweatshirt.
And so if people pick that up, and that's like our bestseller.
And so people look at it and I like to tell them about it.
The snake represents, you know, it's shedding its skin, blah, blah, blah.
So I have my little spiel about that. And I definitely, also when people touch our uterus stuff, too, I definitely say, you know, 10% goes to above abortion access and advocacy.
So there's, you know, maybe little things that you have about your products that you can like put them out in a no pressure way.
I love a buy two, get one free. We have had our pins buy two, get one free almost since the beginning.
And that really brings our...

[29:21] Order average on my podcast with you. Okay, I just spit out so much. I don't know.
No, I love that. I think it's really helpful to not only think about what happens when the booth is set up and people are there, but what is going to make you feel really confident so you're not like, okay, God, by the time this market opens, I'm already exhausted and sweaty and in a bad mood. You kind of want to be able to show up and show out in both, of course, the visual way, but also, yeah, logistics. And I'm saying that to people about retail all the time, is like, yes, retail is so fun and so creative. And everyone's jealous because they think you just get to make things and shop all day. But actually, it's so much math and so much schlepping in so much just like, operation. So I really appreciate you leading with that and kind of giving people a heads up so they're not caught off guard. Because I think, I think that the.

[30:22] Customer facing piece, the like selling in person can be really intimidating. But, in my opinion, too, it's just like a groove that you can kind of like get into. And to your point about mini launches, like it's a muscle that you're really just building over time. And in In my experience with people who...
A lot of businesses who are growing pretty significantly on their e-commerce side, I always feel like in-person is such an amazing information gathering of like, what questions do people have?
What are the things that you're hearing over and over again?
And like, how can you bring that to either like more thorough descriptions online, or I don't know, just kind of like a different look and feel on your Instagram page or elsewhere.
Instagram page. I sound like a fucking boomer saying that, but you know, like, what I think that they can be really related.
And so even though there are additional revenue streams, obviously they're feeding back to one.

[31:20] Business. And I think they're serving each other in really cool ways.
You get a feel for what people are touching, like what people have questions about, for example, some data that we just looked at is. So I just entered Divinity is our bestseller.
It's our bestseller in person. And actually, it's kind of low sales online. And I think it's because it's so soft. And so how do we and it's still it's still a question for us. How do we like suggest that softness online. I know we talked about this last time on my podcast, for scents for candles, like how, how are you conveying the softness, this, the touch feel of this, it's really a premium item that we have, it runs, it's $60. So how do we convey that online?
And it's hard. And I don't know if we haven't hit the nail on the head on that one. It's still something we're working on. But it's it's good feedback, right from these events. Absolutely.
Those things don't match up. What's going on here?
Totally. So interesting. I want to move to maybe like two slightly more like, business operator, like things you sort of touched on as we were going through.

[32:28] Well, we'll go to like the more strategic first, and then we'll kind of like end on more emotional. But what are some strategies that you've developed? Because I can, again, I'm like hearing people being like, I'm already overwhelmed doing this one thing. How am I going going to do more. So what are some strategies that you've developed or that you kind of found useful to juggle a to do list for a multi income stream business and like, without overwhelming yourself and still feeling like you're able to like have fun and have a personal life and not get burnt out? Do, you feel like you've developed those?

[33:05] We are developing them all the time. And it's actually my biggest area of interest. How do I personally create a holistic living work situation that feels good, that feels in line with my body, you know. I personally am dealing with, you know.

[33:24] Anxiety, depression, I have some chronic pain, just found out that I have shallow hip sockets, and like, like, literally, that's what we just found out. So like dealing with some stuff, and a dog and no kids yet, right, but like, run a business and run a team and, you know, make sure we get outside and eat good food or eat period and also get to ceramics and also do all of these things. It's really the most important thing for me. And that's the reason I'm running a business, my own business, is because I don't want anyone to tell me what to do.
And I know how important it is to listen to my body and how that structures my day.
So I'm not someone who's like, okay, this other person tells me that I need to be at the desk from this time to this time, that doesn't work for me.
This day, I'm fucking depressed. This day, I have a migraine.
This day, I'm Energizer Bunny, and I'm going like 75 miles a minute.
So as someone who has a lot of these sort of up and down cadences, it's been really important for me to run my own business and to figure out how to optimize my days in relation to that.

[34:40] Obviously, there's other people involved, so it doesn't work out all the time.
But like, I'm going to cancel on my team if I have a bad migraine, like, they're fine with that. They understand that.
And I have that same understanding for my team. We are humans. I want to create an anti capitalist business, anti harm business. So like, if my team's not feeling good, also, like, I want to know about it. I don't need to know your details. But like, if you're today's kind of off and like someone else needs to pull the slack, like, great. Let's just communicate that.
So in terms of like how I schedule my time, I do have a class on this.
It's called The To-Do List is Dead.
So maybe we can drop that link somewhere. For sure.
And yeah, I don't believe in the to-do list. I think the to-do list is really toxic.
The to-do list is never done.
So if you have a to-do list, it's designed to make you feel, ah, it's never done.
You're getting off at the end of the day, still have 75 things to do on your to-do list, you're going to feel that in your body.

[35:47] So I like to schedule tasks instead. And I think that mindset shift really changes things.
So I'll put a task on my calendar for Tuesday. I'll put a task on my calendar from three weeks from now, because the due date is four weeks from now. But it's going to be on my calendar, so I know it's going to get done.
And it doesn't need to be on my to-do list right now staring in front of me, because I don't need to worry about that for two more weeks.
So that's sort of how I deal with my time. And then I leave space for things to come up, you know, like for other tasks, like, oh, I have a lot of energy for this day, like, so I'm gonna like continue, or, you know, I'm stopping at two o'clock today, and that's what's happening.

[36:31] And I'm so privileged and blessed that I have created a space for me to do that.
And obviously there's seasons where that's not always possible or there's ups and downs.
But yeah, it's my priority to make me the priority as much as possible.
Yeah, I love that. I think I structure my time very similarly, where I have like a master task list because I will, I do forget things often, like I'm trying not to treat my brain like a memory, like just for holding tasks. So I do have like a scribble pad. But I agree, the more that I'm able to be like, I am allowed to put three big tasks on my plate a day, because that is it. That is all I'm going to get done. And some days I only get one of them done. Some days I feel like I have a little bit more energy and I can bump something up. But like, I think putting those limitations on yourself and giving yourself permission to deeply focus on what you need to focus on is, totally freeing. And I agree. It's definitely cut down on my Sunday scaries or my racing mind at 2 a.m. where I'm like, oh my god, don't forget to send that email, which is just a horrible way to live.

[37:49] I will say I've also implemented, just in case anyone's curious about how I spend my time, a scary hour once a week where I do all the tasks that I've just been putting off, even though I know they'll only take five minutes, like call my doctor or send an email to a client that is not amazing or look into a question that I think is going to take hours and hours, but I'm sure once I just know the answer, it'll feel better. So I literally have scary hour blocked on my calendar. It's on Thursdays where I just put all the things and then I usually take myself to like lunch or like get myself like a treat because I am just a child who like needs rewards for doing hard things. I also see my days now. So Friday is like financial and like.

[38:34] Scary days. Yes. Like I put on Friday, you know, I have Monday to prepare for the week, Tuesday, Thursday are like team and community and Wednesday is a content day. And like that has really helped me focus as well. I'm sort of doing these big sort of theme tasks each day, it helps me sort of go through things like switching tasks all over the place. And that's been really, it's been really helpful. And of course, you know, I just hired a few people. So like, all of that went out out the window when I was dealing with that, right. And like, things are a little bit different now. I'm super planning the wedding. But like, having structure So that can be really helpful and give you permission to, for instance, enjoy making content.
If your whole day is locked off and you don't have a million other things on your to-do, list, you can get into that creative flow a little bit easier and stay there rather.

[39:28] Than be stressed about the 10 emails you have to send because don't plan that on the same day.
Totally. A thousand percent. I feel like the times that you're like, okay, I need to record this Instagram reel or I need to write this newsletter that I'm really excited about. If you slot that in between an annoying phone call with your bank and, I don't know, some other operational task, you're not showing up. Michelle at Holisticism and the whole Holisticism universe, they talk a lot about archetypes. And I feel like it is nice to show up to a day being like, I'm the creator today.
You know, like, I'm just in content land, or like, I'm the finance, like, like, I'm confident about my finances today, like, how am I going to show up?
And I don't know, that's kind of like, another way to like, make work feel fun and playful.
Also like it really does feel supportive, I think.
To let your brain be in one space. Small business owners, our brains have to do a lot. So.

[40:31] Let's help them as much as possible. I think brain boundaries are one of the most important things you can do as a human. But as a small business owner too, holding space for the task that you're doing that's in front of you rather than doing the task and also having your mind be a million different places, it's hard. I'm not saying it's easy. I think it's a little bit bit of mindfulness, a little bit of combating, you know, your ADHD, practice, all of these things. But like, that has really helped me like right now I'm doing this thing. I'm not thinking about, like, for instance, I am I am working on emails today, I am not thinking about the wedding planning I have to do later. And then figuring out how to switch your brain.

[41:13] To that new task. I mean, I feel like I used to be called, you know, a multitasker all the time. And like, that was something I put on my resumes. And, you know, I was in the waitressing world for so long, there was a multitasker balancing all these tables at the same time. And actually, I've had to really try to resist that mentality. I am a single tasker now as best as I can be, I'm going to force myself to be a single tasker in this moment. And it's lovely when you can do that.
Oh, I love that. Single-task revolution. Okay, last one before we get into our quick little kind of like quickfire questions at the end of the episode.
But in this one, we might, we'll see how much time we spend on it, but I think throughout this conversation, what's been so interesting to me is like, and you know, I never want to say like, it seems like something comes easy to you.
I feel like I say that to folks all the time and it's really unfair because everyone works really fucking hard, but it does seem like I feel like you really exude confidence and that your ability, even in the examples that you were sharing of all the things that you've tried and some you didn't like, or some just aren't a fit right now, even though you love them and all of that.
Can you talk a little bit about building that confidence and the resilience as a small business owner or growing business owner.

[42:42] Well, thank you. You're welcome. Today I went to yoga, so this is why I'm exuding confidence.
She's still a young. I don't know. I survived a fucking pandemic as an immense business.
Yeah, you're like, today?
Well. Just kidding. Please, whoever's listening, knock on wood.
You know, there was therapy, there were meds, there were, you know, I don't have any answers.
I think it takes practice. I think, you know, I think it takes like what you believe.
And if you're someone who taps into hustle culture and wants to stay there, like you're going to have a very different mindset than me.
Yeah, I'm trying to make that money.

[43:25] Like, yeah, but I know that I can't make that money if I'm burnt out.
And the whole point of all of this is for me not to feel burnt out, for me to feel empowered and excited and creative and for me to have time to spend with my dog.
And thinking ahead, too, like, how on earth am I going to run this business and have a baby?
Mothers, tell me. I don't know.
But I know that these are all factors.
I don't have answers for that.
But I mean, I think there are lots of really cool positive people that you can surround yourself with that have a mindset that could match yours.
And the mindset I want to cultivate is like a holistic one, being good to my body, being good to my brain, like being present in my home, being helpful to the community, like, you know, being anti-patriarchal, like anti-systems of harm, like how can I empower my team, my community to run in a different way than the patriarchy tells us.
And that's radical work. And so, it's a journey.
I mean, you know, all of these systems are telling us that, like.

[44:54] You know, productivity is the only way to be cool. Listen, I am not good at resting. Like, like, I have to try really hard to rest. Like, you know, like, that's why it's actually good for me to have sort of things like activities, go to yoga, go to the pottery studio, because those are like active ways that I like can force myself to do a thing. But like, I'm not good at watching TV, or maybe like TV sucks these days. I don't know, there's like nothing good on. But like, I have a really hard time resting. So that's my work. I mean, I'm also a Virgo and Aquarius.
That gives anyone context. So like, I want to like, create a radical world and also, do all the things and make it all organized. So but, but my work is resting. And maybe other people aren't like that. Maybe other people who are listening, maybe you have an easier time resting and like your work is to actually motivate yourself to get to the desk. An object, in motion stays in motion, rest stays at rest. Like how can we go against gravity a little bit?

[45:59] It's hard. So thank you for those kind notes, but it's also a lot of work and I try every day.
Yeah. No, I love that. And I think too, like what comes across to me in that answer is, first of all, I completely agree. I think a lot of the work, it's so funny that to me, I would agree anyways, that my work is also to rest and to be able to log, I literally have.

[46:28] An event in my phone ever, or in my, well, I have two. If Erica from Housewitch is listening, she'll laugh at this. But one, I have an alarm that goes off on my phone every two hours to to remind me that I have a body.
Cause I will be so far into work that like, I would notice my husband would come home and like put his hand on my shoulder and I literally would be like, like jump out of my skin.
Cause I was like, I literally just feel like a brain in a jar sometimes.
So every two hours, there's an alarm from 9 AM to 9 PM that goes off.
And when I'm with Erica, it's funny. She always does something nice, which I appreciate.
There's that. And then there's also like, I have a calendar event every workday that's at 4 PM.
That's like sign off, like this is the end.
You're not doing anything productive between four and six.
Like I am an early morning person, but I will just like hyper fixate.
And I agree that turning off can be the hardest part of the day, which is so funny.
Not funny, actually, because of how our society is structured.

[47:28] But I think too, what really came across in thinking about like experimenting in your business and resilience is that like.

[47:37] In your answer, you have these really beautiful and radical dreams that go beyond your revenue goals or making a new product or selling a new class, which obviously you get excited about.
But I don't know, it appears to me that maybe when you try something and it fails or it doesn't look exactly like you thought it would look or whatever, when you keep that kind of bigger vision in mind, maybe it's easier to sort of dust yourself off and be like, okay, we're gonna, try again in the words of, is that Aaliyah?
Dust yourself off and try again. Yeah, I mean, like, I'm gonna take two days to be depressed.
And like, the stuff really like, affects me. Like, cancelling the click was really hard.
You have to move on.
It's your job as a business owner to be like, okay, I feel this way.
And my feelings are valid.
And also, let's get the fuck up and let's move on and figure out how we're going to do things.
I mean, it's terrible all the time to be a business owner. And it's also really the best thing in the world.
It is scary. I just hired a few people. And I'm chucking my bank account every day, looking at it.

[48:49] And counting the money that I think is going to come in. And trying my best to keep this all afloat.
And some days are better than others.
Totally. I totally agree. Well, are you ready to go into some little quickie fun after that big esoteric conversation about meaning?
OK. So I ask these to all of our guests just to end on a little fluffy note.
But what is something that's feeling really good to you these days?
It's been so fun.
So awesome.
Are you taking some studio time? taking classes? Like how's that? I was taking classes and now I've been sort of like experimenting myself over at Clay Dreaming in Beverly and it's lovely. It's a beautiful community and it's just so fun to be doing something with my hands that's like you know not related to my business and is for me. And it's fun because you can just like make stuff for your house. Totally! I love that.
I have also been taking, I have a hobby as well, I've been making stained glass and I literally feel like I'm like the first woman in America to develop hobbies. Like I'm like, you guys, have you ever just like made something and not tried to sell it? Like a revelation. So I'm really excited. I want to see some stuff you're making that's really exciting and sounds really fulfilling.

[50:14] What makes you feel successful? I am so, I'm so finding that every day. I don't know, I haven't, I've been trying to feel proud of myself lately. Like I was trying to feel proud of myself for for going to yoga this morning.
I'm proud of myself. I went to the gym last night too. It's not all gym related, but I also know that I'm my best when I'm moving my body. And like, so.

[50:37] Getting like listening to my body is the times when I'm most successful like I don't know this weekend We had cocktails out at like, you know four o'clock and I had one cocktail and I was like Do I want another one and I got a giant coke? I know if Eric is listening to, So she'll love that. But yeah, that was the right decision for me in that moment So like these times when I'm like the most aligned and attuned and like listening to my body, Those are the times I'm the most proud of Oh, I love that answer.

[51:07] And if you could go back, what advice would you give yourself when you started your business?

[51:16] I know you've gone through that one before, but that's a hard one.
So there's nothing like super major that stands out.
I think it's like, keep going. And I must have traveled back in time already and gave that to myself, but yeah.
Yeah, I think just keep going and if we're, yeah, keep trying then, and see.
Maybe you can take it a little bit less seriously also. Maybe that's the one. Like, it's all gonna work out. Again, your muscles are in balance. But like, let's maybe, maybe, you know, we're, we live on a rock in the middle of the universe, you know? If you're getting in with the police department about like, lack of permitting for the event, like, it's fine. We don't care. Right? No, I think I think that's really solid advice to pass me solid advice to current me like it's just it's not that serious like it is but it's also like really it's not.

[52:27] Well this has been so great I feel like I took so many notes and I am so excited to to get this out there.
Is there anything that you have going on that you wanna tell folks about or where can they find you and stay in touch?
It's good to be in front of our community, especially if you're not in any of our locations.
I know probably a lot of you listening are maybe in our locations and our apps have probably closed for our holiday events at this time, but we do have our holiday gift guide, which is an online guide for shoppers, for small business lovers from November 10th to January 10th.
So it's a really great way to get your brand in front of shoppers who want to prioritize shopping small and prioritize unique gifts.
So you can sign up for that somewhere on our website. Go to girlgangcraft.com.
And then if you click Apply, you'll find the holiday gift guide.
And you can find me personally at Phoebe Sherman.
E-h-o-e-b-e-h-e-r-m-i-n on Instagram, and then girlgangcraft, how it sounds.
And...

[53:39] Yeah, come to our event. If you're not showing in Irvine, come visit. Come shop small. We have an Oakland event, December 2nd. We have a Providence event, December 10th. And our Salem event is November 26th, which is small business Sunday over Thanksgiving weekend. Yeah, so come say hi and introduce yourself. Incredible. Well, thank you so much for being here, Phoebe. And And congratulations on your upcoming wedding and everything going on.
And we'll talk to you soon.

[54:12] Thank you so much for having me, Janine. All right. Bye. Thanks for listening to Retail for the Rest of Us.
Find additional information and resources related to this episode in the show notes or on our website, feelgoodretail.com.
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Thank you for being here. Thank you for being in business, and cheers to feeling good.

[54:47] Music.